Episode 58 - Embracing Neurodiversity with Kathy Isaacs

Podcast Episode: Embracing Neurodiversity with Kathy Isaacs

Hosts: Dan Kerr and Kathy Isaacs

Summary: In this episode, Dan Kerr and Kathy Isaacs dive into a rich conversation about neurodiversity, focusing on autism and ADHD. They discuss their personal experiences, challenges, and the importance of self-identification and diagnosis. Kathy shares insights from her work with the Sylvia Roger Academy governance program and her involvement in various autism advocacy organisations.

Key Points:

• Diversity and Inclusion: Dan, as a diversity and inclusion ambassador, emphasises the value of neurodivergent minds in the workplace.
• Autism and ADHD: Kathy explains the intersection of autism and ADHD, noting the growing minority of autistic individuals without ADHD.
• Self-Identification: The legitimacy of self-identifying as autistic is highlighted, with Kathy supporting this approach.
• Challenges and Coping: They discuss the difficulties of masking and the importance of finding ways to unmask and be authentic.
• Empathy and Understanding: The concept of double empathy is explored, emphasising the mutual effort required for understanding between autistic and allistic people.
• Work and Advocacy: Kathy's involvement in autism advocacy through various boards and organisations is discussed, focusing on amplifying autistic voices.
• Personal Reflections: Kathy shares her experiences in palliative care and how her autistic traits helped her excel in the role.
• Special Interests: Kathy talks about her passion for sewing, Salesforce, and the joy of engaging in special interests.
• Music and Creativity: The hosts discuss their love for music that blends genres and the use of writing prompts for creative inspiration.
• Future Plans: Dan shares his plans for a live podcast event focused on the journey of autism discovery and connecting with local services.

Conclusion: The episode concludes with a heartfelt discussion on the importance of community and support in the autism journey. Dan and Kathy's conversation is a testament to the power of embracing neurodiversity and finding joy in being authentic.

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Chapters

• 16:11 Intro to Kathy

Transcript

00:03:36.75
Dan Kerr
Yeah, well, I think, and particularly for me, it's so funny because um I'm just like a middle-aged white guy, you know? And so I'm also the diversity and inclusion ambassador at work, which is always always so funny because I just see there's people's faces who are new to the company where they're like, oh, really? In this as well? You know, really? You couldn't find someone diverse?

00:04:01.89
Dan Kerr
So i'm I'm fairly open about it.

00:04:02.40
Kathy
yeah but you stood a go there going justty

00:04:08.78
Dan Kerr
Flap, flap, flap.

00:04:09.94
Kathy
yeah but what's the quote um You've got to walk before you can run, you've got to run before you can fly.

00:04:11.15
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:04:16.09
Kathy
Well me, I just flap and flap and I'll have to show for it.

00:04:17.67
Dan Kerr
You're going to flap.

00:04:19.49
Kathy
It's autism diagnosis.

00:04:20.20
Dan Kerr
Yeah, you got to flat before you can talk. Oh God. So that's what I'm very open ah with people about the neurodivergence at work. And so it makes that easy. And I think it's, I always find it important to say, just, you know, not to say it, not just like, or do you know? It's more like I'll fit it into the conversation somewhere, you know? So it's just like, oh, okay. So now I get why, why this guy is in this. I love it. I'm really passionate about it.

00:04:49.69
Dan Kerr
So we'll we'll, as I said, we'll skip past to like the intro because you know who you are. Um, but I do want to ask one thing I noticed in there cause I don't know what it means is that you completed the Sylvia Roger Academy governance program. What in the world does that mean?

00:05:06.01
Kathy
Okay, so Autism CRC have an associated academy, which is leadership governance and research programs for autistic adults.

00:05:18.11
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:05:20.52
Kathy
Originally, it was run by somebody who was neurodivergent, but not autistic, who's the executive officer.

00:05:26.37
Dan Kerr
Mm hmm.

00:05:26.83
Kathy
But I'm just trying to think all of the team members apart from Liv, the executive officer, are autistic.

00:05:35.58
Dan Kerr
Okay.

00:05:36.17
Kathy
And all of the programs have been written by autistic adults.

00:05:36.75
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:05:40.88
Kathy
They are presented by autistic adults.

00:05:43.32
Dan Kerr
Wow.

00:05:44.39
Kathy
I know, right? So this is one of the things I love about my workplace is that they've put sort of structures in place that allow autistic people to come in and take over.

00:05:59.69
Dan Kerr
Yes, yeah.

00:05:59.91
Kathy
oh

00:06:02.02
Dan Kerr
Utilise the skills without the, you know, but was just the term that I always use now for me is the unmasking is director says cut face. So, you know, getting to be director says cut face.

00:06:11.36
Kathy
Let's try that again.

00:06:14.95
Dan Kerr
Do you know what I mean? Like a lot of the team's conversations you're animated and you're showing, you know, big smiles and that sort of stuff. But as soon as you press hang up, my face just goes from smiling to just nice and relaxed and and yeah, no expression.

00:06:27.36
Kathy
Yeah, exactly.

00:06:31.88
Dan Kerr
That's what I mean about being in that sort of situation where you can feel completely comfortable. Oh my God, where'd that happen to have those conversations? That's awesome.

00:06:41.48
Kathy
Yeah.

00:06:42.04
Dan Kerr
Wow.

00:06:42.05
Kathy
um I can say to my boss, do you know what? I'm just spinning on this at the moment. I'm going to take a couple of hours off and come back to it.

00:06:52.43
Dan Kerr
Yep, yep.

00:06:52.52
Kathy
Just walk off in the middle of the day and work later in the afternoon, like in the evening.

00:06:54.19
Dan Kerr
Mmm. Yep.

00:06:57.24
Kathy
And it's understood.

00:06:58.31
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:06:58.75
Kathy
It's got.

00:07:01.21
Dan Kerr
Well, I think it should be appreciated.

00:07:01.22
Kathy
I mean, look, it's not it's not perfect. It's not by any means perfect, but it's

00:07:06.85
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:07:09.76
Kathy
no workplace is ever going to be perfect. And it's just a, you know.

00:07:12.61
Dan Kerr
No.

00:07:17.02
Dan Kerr
Yeah, it it's and that's what I suppose we're working towards and me being in that sort of diversion diversity inclusion sort of role, I am trying to make at least my company um realize the the value of neurodivergent minds, you know ah the way we go about doing things which may not fit there you know their normal working hours sort of thing, as you said, or whatever formats they have or whatever processes they have. But you know i I enjoy creating processes. I enjoy all that sort of stuff. And so I'm loving being able to sort of put in my two cents, but my God, it is hard two to get

00:07:58.59
Dan Kerr
When I want, when I want responses now. So I find that incredibly frustrating. And I can't just say, you you need to give me a response now. im look ah You know, you're going to drive me insane if I have to wait any longer, you know. But they don't understand that. It's, you know.

00:08:15.30
Kathy
This is where you need wording. yeah like you need to find Find the wording that works.

00:08:18.51
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:08:21.15
Kathy
um it's It's brilliant when you're saying things like, um we work with not just the Autism CRC, but we've also got

00:08:21.48
Dan Kerr
Oh, yeah.

00:08:30.69
Kathy
It's like a spin-off social enterprise where we've got we take the app that we've developed for running the autism CRC and we sell that on to other CRCs.

00:08:33.53
Dan Kerr
Oh. OK.

00:08:42.66
Kathy
So that means that I'm talking to a lot of people who don't get autism on a daily basis.

00:08:46.03
Dan Kerr
Right.

00:08:47.09
Kathy
what to Sorry, no they're mostly researchers so they might not actually

00:08:47.64
Dan Kerr
Oh.

00:08:51.76
Dan Kerr
Oh.

00:08:54.35
Kathy
They might not actually realise that they would get autism if they just took a little bit of time to think about how they process things, but anyway.

00:09:01.06
Dan Kerr
Exactly. Yeah. They had a little, you know, quite in a monologue to think about tick, tick, tick.

00:09:07.82
Kathy
They haven't got their head in that space yet, but that's all right. um But having words like, look, um I have an audit auditory processing delay. Do you think you could possibly email me these questions or email me this information?

00:09:16.63
Dan Kerr
Me too.

00:09:19.38
Dan Kerr
Yes. I've done that.

00:09:23.40
Kathy
Using the auditory processing delay, it sounds very official.

00:09:26.95
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:09:27.17
Kathy
It's absolutely, it's 100% true because that is part of my autistic makeup.

00:09:28.65
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:09:32.14
Dan Kerr
Yep. Yeah.

00:09:33.24
Kathy
But yeah, it's just, that makes sense to people, even though they don't have any idea what it means, but it's got all the right words in it.

00:09:39.06
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:09:41.30
Kathy
Whereas if I said, I'm autistic, could you, it just sounds like, you know, I'm i'm a whiny little bitch, could you please send me this stuff?

00:09:41.51
Dan Kerr
yeah

00:09:47.35
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, i'm I'm special. And that happens that that's that does happen.

00:09:55.30
Kathy
Yeah.

00:09:55.37
Dan Kerr
that that sort of, oh, that's, you know, the sort of the head to the side going, oh, that's, oh, that's amazing.

00:10:01.24
Kathy
That's so good that you can, yeah.

00:10:01.73
Dan Kerr
You're amazing. Oh, how do you, yeah, how do you do it?

00:10:08.60
Kathy
It's an interesting question.

00:10:09.41
Dan Kerr
It's hard.

00:10:10.20
Kathy
How do I do it?

00:10:11.00
Dan Kerr
Yeah, I don't don know.

00:10:11.12
Kathy
like look It's an uphill battle talking to people who, you know, look at me like inspo porn, but

00:10:12.67
Dan Kerr
I just want you to get free.

00:10:22.04
Dan Kerr
Oh, I was going to ask too, because we're talking about autism. Have you been diagnosed with ADHD or any other ism or whatever?

00:10:28.46
Kathy
I have. I have. That's actually a conversation that's come up. It came up during the governance program that autistic people without ADHD are becoming a subgroup, a minority group within the autistic community.

00:10:35.30
Dan Kerr
Okay.

00:10:42.29
Dan Kerr
Yes, they are.

00:10:45.69
Dan Kerr
Yep. Yep. Yep.

00:10:46.37
Kathy
And it's, you know, ah one of my close friends was, is the one who brought this up originally and said, I don't have ADHD and I'm actually not processing this the same way that most of this group are.

00:10:56.66
Dan Kerr
Wow.

00:10:56.70
Kathy
Could we slow it all down, please?

00:10:59.08
Dan Kerr
Yeah, yeah.

00:11:00.18
Kathy
And I mean, she's very strong to have said that.

00:11:00.29
Dan Kerr
Oh, that's interesting. Yes, wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, I i mean, it took it took a few years before I went and got the the official one myself, but you know after the kids had and it was just, but we'll we'll get to that, we'll get to that. um Because I wanna take us back now to, and I'll put it down here. Hang on, let me just find where ah but I've put this information. Okay, a little stroll back to 2017.

00:11:27.87
Dan Kerr
Okay, so we've got, and I had a look to see what was going on at that time because it just feels like it was so long ago. We've got ah the deadliest mass shooting in modern US s history, which was in Las Vegas. There was the terror attacks in London, but to the Ariana Grande concert in Westminster Bridge. There was the same-sex marriage postal survey. The biggest movie was Star Wars, The Last Jedi, and the biggest album was Taylor Swift's Reputation. So,

00:11:55.10
Dan Kerr
That's where we were at that time in 2017 when we sort of started to connect on Facebook. And I think it was just through you made some comment about when I was having a bit of a rant or something on there at that time when I wasn't stopping that.

00:12:08.69
Dan Kerr
And it was then that I sort of noticed I saw the the little AU at the end of the name and I didn't know what that meant. And you know what I mean?

00:12:16.42
Kathy
Yeah.

00:12:17.68
Dan Kerr
And at that particular time in my life, my son had been diagnosed My daughter was, we were trying to get her diagnosed. My wife was trying to say to me,

00:12:30.59
Dan Kerr
why aren't you going to get diagnosed? And I was adamant that I was not autistic because I found a book and I you know was checking check boxes and things like that. And I'm like, you know, my self evaluation after all these years was ah within my masking sort of world. And so I just didn't see that me, I did not see it. And so that's, that was where I was when I started to, I sort of,

00:12:57.47
Dan Kerr
I thought, well, she seems to know a little bit of this sort of stuff, so I'm just gonna ask. I'm just gonna ask somebody. Somebody that's not my wife, you know, or someone who's close telling me that it's so obvious, you know. And so, yeah, I talked about that, about my ah son and daughter. It's raised questions about myself. um I talked about how I used to work with kids, um autistic kids, in ah my 20s.

00:13:22.42
Dan Kerr
um And I said, I'm wondering whether it's worth me going through the process. And that's when, that's the first time I actually raised that question with them like for myself and then with someone else, you know. And so we started having a bit of a back and forth.

00:13:39.77
Dan Kerr
um

00:13:42.23
Dan Kerr
You were talking about sort of self-identification. Do you still feel that that's a legitimate thing to just to be self,

00:13:48.68
Kathy
Yes, yeah, look, it's absolutely valid. I would say of the...

00:13:52.06
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:13:57.11
Kathy
I'm going to take a wild guess and say of the nearly 200 people that I know who self-identified before getting a diagnosis or who still self-identify.

00:14:01.94
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:14:05.31
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:14:05.61
Kathy
um There's only a couple of people that I don't get that strong, oh yes, you definitely are, since, from.

00:14:10.01
Dan Kerr
Okay. Yep. Yep. Okay. And so most of those, those people who do go through that process usually end up, it's sp it's like, yeah, yeah.

00:14:18.91
Kathy
Yeah, i had I heard somebody say a little while ago, in their context it was talking about variable mobility and so, you know, having a wheelchair when you can still stand up and walk a few steps.

00:14:32.41
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yes.

00:14:33.48
Kathy
And the comment that was made to them was that people who don't need a wheelchair do not dream about having one.

00:14:34.25
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:14:44.00
Kathy
They do not wish deeply that they could have one. People who are not autistic or at the very least are not neurodivergent, do not go deeply into, you know, could I be, am I?

00:14:48.18
Dan Kerr
No. Yep.

00:15:00.30
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

00:15:00.89
Kathy
Like, it it's not something that crosses most people's mind.

00:15:09.09
Dan Kerr
Well, I think there's barriers that there's there's certain cultural um concepts about what it what it is and isn't, and a lot of negativity.

00:15:20.13
Dan Kerr
um There's, you know, going, as I said, back in the 90s, when I was doing this work, I wouldn't have been diagnosed. My kids wouldn't have been.

00:15:26.92
Kathy
No. And part of the reason that you wouldn't have been diagnosed is it has only been since 2015 that you could have a dual autism ADHD diagnosis. If you had an hd ADHD diagnosis, you were excluded from having an autism diagnosis.

00:15:41.60
Dan Kerr
It's crazy.

00:15:43.54
Kathy
And now they're saying 85, 90% of autistic people

00:15:46.20
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:15:49.53
Dan Kerr
And it's an interesting relationship between the two. It really is a very interesting relationship that I still try and wrap my bloody head around. You know, my door and I are very similar in the way that our ADHD, you know, I was about to say interfaces.

00:16:00.50
Kathy
Yeah.

00:16:08.45
Kathy
you Interfaces is good.

00:16:09.85
Dan Kerr
Well, it is kind of true.

00:16:09.91
Kathy
I was going to say affects you, but that's a bit, that's kind of bit medicalised.

00:16:10.90
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Well, I was as inattentive, whereas you know my wife who just got diagnosed ADHD and my son are the bouncing off the walls type. you know So it's very, very different. And so it's so funny that there's two of each in the household. yeah

00:16:30.41
Kathy
Yeah, alright.

00:16:30.64
Dan Kerr
which could be very fun. um You also said that you, but as far as they're going for that, when I asked, should I go through this, the process, um you said you found it a reassuring process, um because spent and you can spend most of your life believing you're broken, faulty, you know, to have that, that that's that's exactly the experience I had.

00:16:47.24
Kathy
Right?

00:16:51.72
Dan Kerr
I was so, I was shit scared when I was waiting for um him to come back and say at the end of it to say,

00:16:58.06
Kathy
I know!

00:16:59.97
Dan Kerr
I thought, oh my God, really?

00:17:01.18
Kathy
It's terrifying, there was a week between my um diagnostic interview and my going back and getting the diagnosis.

00:17:11.83
Dan Kerr
I think you told me straight away.

00:17:13.87
Kathy
Yeah, um i had been I had been told that that would be the case.

00:17:14.09
Dan Kerr
Just me saying a lot.

00:17:18.66
Kathy
like they They do the interview and then you do your you paperwork and you send that back to them and you do quizzes and things and send that back to them and then they draw it all together and

00:17:18.82
Dan Kerr
Right. Yep.

00:17:23.15
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:17:26.40
Dan Kerr
It must have been you.

00:17:30.52
Dan Kerr
That's right.

00:17:30.72
Kathy
the week later. yeah

00:17:32.10
Dan Kerr
That's right. That's exactly what that's what happened. Yes. Yeah, that's that's such.

00:17:35.08
Kathy
and my my My diagnostician said to me, do you know what, all these notes in the margins, they're not diagnostic ah diagnostic, but they probably should be.

00:17:46.33
Dan Kerr
Ah, of course. Well, it's still problematic now, isn't it? um Because of the the sort of male centric way that those diagnostic processes have been built.

00:17:58.72
Kathy
But it's also, you read a question and, you know, do you always do things the same way?

00:18:05.98
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

00:18:07.97
Kathy
I ah originally answered that question, you know, no or unsure or something like that.

00:18:12.84
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

00:18:13.88
Kathy
And my husband looked at it and he said, when you go to Hungry Jack's, what do you have? And I said, what was cheese minus tomato and onion?

00:18:17.92
Dan Kerr
Oh.

00:18:20.97
Kathy
And I was like, okay.

00:18:24.57
Dan Kerr
That's so funny.

00:18:24.56
Kathy
So that's the note in the margin. It's like some things. like I will deliberately choose to go different ways home just to try out different things.

00:18:30.17
Dan Kerr
Yeah. This?

00:18:32.16
Kathy
And so I can't be autistic because I don't do things the same way every time.

00:18:32.68
Dan Kerr
Yeah. No. And yet, yeah, yeah, I've been back at, I've been back in the city after being in South Melbourne for, you know, ah of what five years there or four years and then two years in the city. And I have essentially, I think farther than once or twice gone to the same restaurant for lunch, the same place and had one or two ah meals, depending on my, um my mood and whether I was going to have something similar.

00:19:00.30
Dan Kerr
over the next few days and i would to the point where i would walk i would be i'd be very mindful of this and then i go and walk around to other places to see oh i might go and try this one out and i would i would walk i would see and i'd say i go on i'm going in here but then i just kept walking

00:19:21.43
Dan Kerr
and be And be shocked and and and sort of ah really confused. Why didn't I walk in? And then I just turn around and I go walk back to the same restaurant I usually go to.

00:19:32.06
Dan Kerr
Even if it's like another 15 minutes out of my way.

00:19:34.74
Kathy
Yeah.

00:19:35.00
Dan Kerr
It's madness.

00:19:36.75
Kathy
Yeah. um Another one, the and and part of that, you know, I'm going to seek out something different. that I ah believe that's sort of associated with the ADHD side of things, because it's that foot, foot, foot, foot processing.

00:19:48.50
Dan Kerr
Right.

00:19:51.10
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yes.

00:19:52.94
Kathy
But um on the other side, like ah on the other side, and it's not quite polar opposites, but there's the OCD side of things.

00:20:02.41
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:20:02.60
Kathy
I had a friend who had OCD and was autistic, and her comment on that was that the two things look from an external person looking in.

00:20:12.34
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:20:14.26
Kathy
They look like the same thing. They look like they're doing the same thing.

00:20:15.77
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:20:17.43
Kathy
But for an autistic person, um the sameness is about, well, do you know what?

00:20:17.52
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:20:24.48
Kathy
I know that I like that.

00:20:26.52
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:20:26.82
Kathy
And I might not like something else and then I've wasted money and you know, I could have just gone and had the thing that I know that I like.

00:20:27.20
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:20:29.67
Dan Kerr
o Yeah.

00:20:34.62
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:20:35.47
Kathy
Whereas for a um an OCD person, there's a big, it's kind of a magical thinking or a um and massive anxiety response of the world is going to end if I don't do this thing or these things in this order or

00:20:50.06
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

00:20:53.67
Kathy
And i can't I can't break that because something will go very wrong.

00:20:55.91
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:20:56.87
Kathy
Now, that's, I think, oversimplification of it.

00:20:57.06
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah.

00:20:59.47
Kathy
And you know that was what he said, that it's oversimplification.

00:20:59.87
Dan Kerr
I'll get it. Yeah.

00:21:02.33
Kathy
But it's really an autistic preference for sameness is about food is a good example, textures.

00:21:02.46
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:21:10.07
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

00:21:13.73
Kathy
That tip place might have a texture that I don't like. It might have an ingredient that I don't like.

00:21:17.33
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:21:18.45
Kathy
And this place doesn't.

00:21:20.10
Dan Kerr
exactly I don't here because I got IBS and I know that that's not gonna hurt me by going there you know oh that's so funny we just saw this discussion between autism and ADHD I started getting because um it's always music for me I started getting the odd couple theme popping up in my head did it do do you know well what a great sitcom that would be you know and I think I need to name them

00:21:24.22
Kathy
Exactly, yeah.

00:21:40.42
Kathy
ah

00:21:42.55
Dan Kerr
Just to create a visualization of the battle that goes on, you know, I think it would help me make make sense to create that sort of, what like, dichotomy, like the the two different characters in the same head of, you know, having this argument.

00:21:55.01
Kathy
That sounds great.

00:21:56.39
Dan Kerr
Well, for Christ's sake, would you just go into that bloody restaurant, try it out. It's going to be exciting. We'll try something new. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:22:04.46
Kathy
But what if they've got mushrooms?

00:22:06.34
Dan Kerr
Yeah, they'll have bloody onion powder on something and they won't tell me, you know? So we're not doing that. We're going back to the other place. Wah, wah, wah, wah.

00:22:17.31
Kathy
Yes. Yes. Oh, so yes.

00:22:19.99
Dan Kerr
Oh, God. So I want to quickly move through. We had a big discussion that went back and forth and um it was just it was awesome. It was just awesome because we were talking about things like Ah, what have we got here?

00:22:34.98
Dan Kerr
You had various quirks, did love the the enjoyment of isolation at times, not being able to recognize faces, that sort of face blindness. And then you actually the were the person, i'd I'd forgotten this, you were the person who recommended that the the clinic that I ended up getting, I'm still seeing the psychologist there and obviously got my diagnosis through them as well.

00:22:57.17
Kathy
Awesome.

00:22:57.36
Dan Kerr
And you were the one who recommended it to me.

00:22:59.10
Kathy
I can't remember who that was.

00:23:01.20
Dan Kerr
ASD clinic.

00:23:02.14
Kathy
Well, ASD, clinic and queue.

00:23:02.99
Dan Kerr
and kina Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they've been wonderful. Just wonderful. You know.

00:23:07.83
Kathy
Excellent. Oh, that's really good.

00:23:09.15
Dan Kerr
So yeah, I've said a thank you on the, on the messages a few times. And, um, ah yeah I usually on here, what my previous host would always say at the end would try to make me give her a compliment all the time. So it's always hard for me to hate doing compliments, but I'm trying, I'm still trying to do it. So thank you. Thank you for helping me get through that first step. This is why I'm doing the podcast.

00:23:32.84
Dan Kerr
of doing it because of that conversation that we had and how important was for me and how how much it helped. And so I want to do that for other people as well. So that's why I'm doing this.

00:23:42.83
Kathy
And can I just say, um, now and I realize this is a podcast, but I'm looking at your face in in this, um, during this meeting.

00:23:43.39
Dan Kerr
and um

00:23:50.72
Kathy
meeting And you just, the joy when you're talking about autistic experience and the things that, um, have changed for you since that conversation, the joy of autism, the joy of being autistic and sharing that and knowing it and embracing it.

00:24:02.36
Dan Kerr
there

00:24:05.13
Dan Kerr
It's great.

00:24:07.21
Kathy
I see that so much now in a lot of people that

00:24:07.66
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:24:11.37
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:24:12.30
Kathy
You know, that wasn't even available to it um autistic people 20 years ago, that joy.

00:24:12.33
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:24:17.86
Kathy
Well, no, that it probably was, but it was only just starting to be recognised that it was a type of, like a neurotype, not a pathology.

00:24:18.47
Dan Kerr
No, no.

00:24:27.21
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:24:29.51
Dan Kerr
No. Well, that's exactly it. Yeah. If we had a very different world where we were the majority, the world would just be set up to suit us, you know, and they would be the.

00:24:37.99
Kathy
Completely different, like, yeah. Like, there would be no such thing as um those those hand dryers in in you know toilets that don't you don't even have to press the button for, but if you accidentally stick your shoulder underneath it, it turns on.

00:24:53.67
Kathy
Yeah, that that happened today.

00:24:53.93
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:24:56.13
Kathy
You frightened the crap out of me.

00:24:57.19
Dan Kerr
Okay, alright.

00:24:59.29
Kathy
ah

00:25:00.91
Dan Kerr
What the hell was that?

00:25:04.47
Dan Kerr
That's when my wife sneezes.

00:25:04.60
Kathy
Actually, oh shit, oh shit, oh, oh, oh, I actually, you know, loudly said that. You know, rest your mind far through.

00:25:10.30
Dan Kerr
its yeah but um ah Whenever my wife sneezes, ah it's so loud. I get such a shock every time and I'm like, Jesus, H. Christ, what the hell?

00:25:24.73
Dan Kerr
Like it, yeah, sudden reactions.

00:25:26.75
Kathy
Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:29.36
Dan Kerr
Oh my God. So anyway, so thank you very much. And ah yeah, it's it's put me on this journey, which is something, yeah, it's made me very happy. It's, you know, there's sadnesses as well.

00:25:41.04
Dan Kerr
Obviously I talk about this a lot, um which is that sort of morning, what could have been morning or who you could have been, what you could have been. All those things are things that you have to accept and kind of,

00:25:55.01
Dan Kerr
yeah deal Just deal with it. And then for me, let's try to find all the positives. Let's find all the other things.

00:25:59.80
Kathy
Yeah.

00:26:00.97
Dan Kerr
And what the psychiatrist said to me, give yourself a break sometimes. Just give yourself a break. And ah and that's powerful words.

00:26:10.28
Kathy
It's something that I struggle with, actually, that giving yourself permission to have a break, giving yourself permission to stand and stare out a window for a while.

00:26:10.94
Dan Kerr
you know Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:20.14
Kathy
Actually, the staring out the window in 2020, um right in the middle of COVID. I had first my mum and then my stepfather died and I'm carer now for my younger brother who's got an intellectual disability um but he lives down southwest Victoria and he's by himself in the family home but with a carer there most of the time but for the first six weeks while when we were trying to work through the NDIS to get the extra supports in place

00:26:27.50
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Oh, geez. Wow.

00:26:51.90
Dan Kerr
No. Yep.

00:26:55.93
Kathy
I was just down there and I spent a lot of time staring off into space and that staring off into space, like just looking through the kitchen window across, um, there's a sort of a panicky thing next door, staring out across that panic and just not moving for half an hour.

00:27:09.64
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:27:16.29
Kathy
And I hadn't realized just how healing that is. And it's something that I hadn't allowed myself to do for years.

00:27:22.84
Dan Kerr
Oh, were you so you're quiet? Your mind was quiet?

00:27:24.94
Kathy
Yeah, yeah there was there was not that frantic activity all the time.

00:27:25.43
Dan Kerr
It wasn't? like Okay.

00:27:30.88
Dan Kerr
Right. Do you think it was the situation you were in, the pipe being back in a place that you, you know, feel comfortable in?

00:27:38.45
Kathy
Yeah, the place that, that's actually quite right, the the place that I so had struggled so badly with in childhood.

00:27:41.46
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:27:44.90
Dan Kerr
Yeah, yeah.

00:27:45.19
Kathy
um But also, um I didn't, to be doing anything. There was nothing that I needed to be doing for a lot of the time.

00:27:55.87
Dan Kerr
All right.

00:27:59.23
Kathy
i um My husband was home looking after the kids, like home here in Melbourne looking after the kids.

00:28:04.66
Dan Kerr
Yep, yep.

00:28:07.27
Kathy
I was just down there yeah having having collected all of the information about the you know the police people who had come and given me, that broken the news to me.

00:28:16.64
Dan Kerr
All right, okay, yep.

00:28:18.67
Kathy
um so that I could drive through the ring of steel to go out of Melbourne to go down to South West Vic, yeah.

00:28:24.69
Dan Kerr
Oh, of course.

00:28:27.43
Kathy
And I was like, and I had this letter in my hand when they pulled me over, I just looked at the person, I looked at the letter, I looked at the person, I burst into tears and he goes, that's all right, off you go.

00:28:28.58
Dan Kerr
That's right.

00:28:35.52
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:28:43.62
Dan Kerr
Yep. I think there's been a few of those sorts of stories.

00:28:47.70
Kathy
I'm sure, yeah.

00:28:47.95
Dan Kerr
yeah the Oh my god, I will explain the Ring of Steel.

00:28:50.02
Kathy
but yeah, the ring of, oh yeah, for people who didn't have it or don't remember it or, yeah.

00:28:51.25
Dan Kerr
I would have done that already on the edit.

00:28:56.65
Dan Kerr
Yeah, no. Yeah, a little bit different.

00:29:00.47
Kathy
It was so, and it was just everything at the time, wasn't it?

00:29:00.66
Dan Kerr
It's

00:29:05.75
Kathy
The,

00:29:06.27
Dan Kerr
Yeah, very strange. ah Very different. I was happy. I liked it.

00:29:10.73
Kathy
um yes, I said that too, but I still have,

00:29:17.37
Kathy
I don't know, a little bit of trauma from it.

00:29:19.34
Dan Kerr
Of course, but you've had, you had, you had these family members and that it happened to me before COVID.

00:29:19.36
Kathy
I'm still...

00:29:25.27
Kathy
Yeah, no, it was it was the the COVID, the shutdowns and lockdowns and things themselves.

00:29:25.69
Dan Kerr
I'd gone and had to go through all that.

00:29:31.46
Dan Kerr
Right.

00:29:32.62
Kathy
I've got a little bit of trauma from that. I'm still agrophobic, not as badly as I was, but I don't like going and doing things that aren't necessary.

00:29:34.27
Dan Kerr
Oh, okay. Right.

00:29:38.63
Dan Kerr
Right. That's interesting.

00:29:43.61
Kathy
I will order my groceries online.

00:29:46.98
Dan Kerr
Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Now, you were just talking about so you so you were said he was your mother and your stepfather.

00:29:56.98
Kathy
And then my stepfather.

00:29:59.46
Dan Kerr
um You were in palliative care for a few years.

00:30:02.07
Kathy
Yep.

00:30:04.59
Dan Kerr
how So ah I want to understand just what that experience was like. Were you diagnosed when you were doing that work?

00:30:13.09
Kathy
Ah, yes, I was.

00:30:14.35
Dan Kerr
You were? Okay.

00:30:14.71
Kathy
ah Sorry, I got diagnosed towards the end of doing that work.

00:30:18.08
Dan Kerr
Okay. How did that all sort of work in? Was that something you thought about?

00:30:24.55
Kathy
Ah, yes.

00:30:26.62
Dan Kerr
Were you good at the job?

00:30:28.27
Kathy
I was bloody good at the job. I still miss it.

00:30:30.12
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah. And i so I think I would be very good at that job as well because I was extremely

00:30:39.77
Dan Kerr
What's the word I was, I was a solid person when I was in my twenties, when my mum passed away and when she was going through cancer. She was the person I relied on back then. Same thing with my grandmother um and grandfather when they were going through that process in palliative care.

00:30:55.04
Dan Kerr
And I would spend all my time with her and um it's something I could do and it's something I would be very good at doing, which I, I suppose the context of what I'm trying to say is that most allistics would think that would be terrible that this work.

00:31:02.52
Kathy
Yeah.

00:31:10.31
Dan Kerr
Yeah. So why do you think you were so good at this?

00:31:18.43
Kathy
It's an interesting question, and i I have thought about this quite a bit. um One thing, one one part of what can make you very good in palliative care is that if you're alexithymic, meaning that if you have struggled to read your own emotions, you can use that in your favour to be able to put it aside while you help somebody else.

00:31:35.38
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:31:40.75
Dan Kerr
Yep, that's me.

00:31:42.19
Kathy
Yep, absolutely. Another thing is that it uses all of you.

00:31:51.61
Kathy
It's brain and sort of a heart for support.

00:31:57.77
Dan Kerr
Yes, yep.

00:31:58.39
Kathy
So sarahs there is a lot of um sort of really quite out there symptom management. When I say out there, I mean, little practical things that you can suggest to help people.

00:32:13.98
Kathy
So if somebody's been having chemo or if they've got some some kind of disease process that is causing them to feel nauseated first thing in the morning,

00:32:19.58
Dan Kerr
Yep. Okay. Right. Yep.

00:32:23.07
Kathy
You can suggest things like having a little packet of salted like so biscuits next to the bed and have something first thing in the morning, something salty first thing in the morning.

00:32:29.64
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:32:32.82
Dan Kerr
Yep. Yep.

00:32:35.91
Kathy
And that can change somebody's life. That little thing can change somebody's life.

00:32:41.91
Dan Kerr
It's a practical thing.

00:32:43.51
Kathy
A little practical thing that is not medical, that is human.

00:32:44.51
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah.

00:32:48.64
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yes.

00:32:49.57
Kathy
It's a human connection.

00:32:51.23
Dan Kerr
Thoughtful. Thoughtful.

00:32:53.55
Kathy
Yes, exactly. And recognizing the bigness of everything and having a mind that will not necessarily try to go through always the same things.

00:32:55.05
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:33:07.56
Kathy
This is going to be a little bit gross. I had somebody who had a ah throat cancer.

00:33:12.85
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yeah.

00:33:13.53
Kathy
And so basically she was on a liquid diet and she said, what I miss more than anything else is salad.

00:33:16.43
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:33:21.87
Dan Kerr
Oh.

00:33:23.06
Kathy
And I said, have you tried just chewing it and then spitting it into a hanky or into a tissue?

00:33:25.69
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

00:33:28.41
Kathy
And she said, I never thought of that. And she did it in the next week or the next time I went back, she said, it's enough.

00:33:36.01
Dan Kerr
Yeah, that's awesome, isn't it?

00:33:38.33
Kathy
Yes.

00:33:38.47
Dan Kerr
Yeah, you've you've experienced that sensation and wow, but's it's like that's like positive bulimia. You know what I mean? It's it's a really good thing. It's like you're not you're getting into the bits there and then you can just spit it out. That's that's really it's practical. But from this work is also very you're providing an emotional support as well. And as we know, empathy is a very strong thing, but it's a different kind of empathy than said the the neurotypical person would understand.

00:34:12.16
Dan Kerr
because they may not necessarily see a lot of that empathy going you know in front of their eyes.

00:34:16.73
Kathy
what what people What the old idea of autistic people are not empathetic it comes from is that people who have got minds very similar to each other can understand the world from ah the same kind of place, whereas people whose minds are different

00:34:24.07
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:34:39.19
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:34:40.27
Kathy
will understand the world from a different perspective. I have heard it described as if you've got people and each person is standing in a well and they're looking up at the sky, people whose wells are close to each other will see the same bit of sky, but somebody whose well is halfway around the world, it's gonna be dark, it might be raining, am like you know it's a very different piece of the world that they see.

00:34:43.33
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yep.

00:35:06.81
Kathy
And it's like that, you know if you've got people and you know people talking and saying, oh, well, the sky is blue. There are white clouds. And somebody's going, no, the sky is black. There's stars all over the place.

00:35:18.26
Dan Kerr
Yeah, yeah.

00:35:19.23
Kathy
um It doesn't mean that anyone's wrong. It just means that this group, this large group over here who all agree, are seeing a different thing to the person who's seeing the night sky with the stars.

00:35:25.75
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:35:30.37
Dan Kerr
Yep. Yep. They're both right.

00:35:33.00
Kathy
Yeah. And that that concept, and that comes back to the concept of double empathy, which um people might be aware of from the the work of Damien Milton.

00:35:39.53
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:35:44.19
Dan Kerr
I almost talked about it in the last episode, but it was like, I was

00:35:44.61
Kathy
Oh, was it? Oh, convenient.

00:35:47.16
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to talk about it, talk about it, cause I didn't in the end, I ran out of time.

00:35:55.03
Kathy
That's fine, we'll probably run out of time again.

00:35:59.49
Dan Kerr
yeah Everyone Google double empathy cause it is really interesting. It is.

00:36:03.38
Kathy
It really is. Essentially what it's saying is that um empathy goes two ways and um autistic people work very hard most of the time to try to understand allistic people because allistic people are the majority and that's what what we're expected to be. But, allistic people do not understand autistic people that doesn't make that our fault.

00:36:31.16
Kathy
It's like, I don't understand you, that's my fault.

00:36:31.30
Dan Kerr
but That's right.

00:36:34.71
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:36:34.95
Kathy
You don't understand me, also my fault.

00:36:37.99
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:36:38.65
Kathy
It's not, it's that um mismatch of communication style, mismatch of understanding of the world, the way you perceive the world, the way you interface with the world.

00:36:39.41
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:36:47.38
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:36:50.95
Dan Kerr
Yeah, it's right. It's totally, it's totally true. Yeah, there's a concept I did talk about on the last episode regarding this about someone's sort of theory of why we think differently and what's quite interesting and that, um yeah, she was sort of talking about allistic people would be more concerned with they the the social cohesion than they are about the truth.

00:36:54.97
Kathy
Yeah.

00:37:15.99
Dan Kerr
and what's and what matters, those sort of moral ground works that can be very important to us. where we we're not going to If got someone you know who is in our family that we don't necessarily agree with, we're not just going to always just let it slide. We we want to, but sometimes ah like I never did. But now I'm like, I don't think I could hold back any anymore.

00:37:43.12
Kathy
This Terry Pratchett quote, forgive me everyone who talks to me on a regular basis, I do quote Terry Pratchett quite a bit, personal is not the same as important.

00:37:50.79
Dan Kerr
Yeah, he's good. All right, I like that.

00:37:56.59
Kathy
Yep, so when there are two things that need to be done, the personal or the interpersonal, A lot of people say that is, you know, this is this is personal, it's got to be important.

00:38:10.85
Kathy
But sometimes the important thing to do is not necessarily the personal thing to do.

00:38:11.16
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:38:16.33
Dan Kerr
Yep, yep.

00:38:18.13
Kathy
Sometimes. Yeah. And that it kind of sums up the difference.

00:38:23.53
Dan Kerr
Yeah, it does, doesn't it?

00:38:24.13
Kathy
There's personal and there's important and which is not to say that somebody who perceives the personal as important is wrong.

00:38:32.02
Dan Kerr
Yeah, yeah.

00:38:34.67
Kathy
It's just a different way of looking at it.

00:38:37.13
Dan Kerr
It sort of falls into the what I was talking about comfort and how my process of going through various belief systems and and understandings about myself and self-reflection, it didn't matter to me at all if it was going to be uncomfortable.

00:38:52.58
Dan Kerr
But for a lot of people, it is the most important thing.

00:38:54.03
Kathy
Yes. Yes.

00:38:55.77
Dan Kerr
It gives me comfort, whatever it may be. And my answer is, so what?

00:39:00.75
Kathy
Yep.

00:39:01.90
Dan Kerr
What does that mean?

00:39:02.07
Kathy
Yep.

00:39:02.96
Dan Kerr
It doesn't get you any closer to understanding something, the truth of something as deeply as you can.

00:39:08.58
Kathy
Yes.

00:39:09.24
Dan Kerr
And I just get these looks. but I've, I've often been told, um, well you just think differently. That was before the diagnosis that happened to me all the time, but you're just different, Daniel.

00:39:15.14
Kathy
Oh, no, really?

00:39:19.46
Dan Kerr
You're different.

00:39:20.37
Kathy
Yeah. Except, you know, Dan, welcome home. well Welcome to your family, your kin.

00:39:25.67
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:39:31.44
Kathy
You're not just different, you are indifferent you're different in a way that's one of us, one of us, one of us.

00:39:39.86
Dan Kerr
I just remember then i'm on my diary at school in year 12, I had a quote that says, don't be different to be different, be different to be better. You know, all the way back then, you know, that sort of concept was important.

00:39:51.64
Kathy
oh Look, i I used to have a yeah ah magnet on my fridge that said, um

00:40:01.70
Kathy
What was it? Being average scares the hell out of me. Dare to be average.

00:40:06.69
Dan Kerr
but did the be right yeah ex chi and

00:40:09.16
Kathy
I added the dare to be average. The the other one was...

00:40:11.12
Dan Kerr
challenge accepted it is it's fun it's fun to do that too it's like it's like a game that's what i that's

00:40:12.34
Kathy
yeah Well, it's it's undermining this whole thing of... You have to be special. It's like, we are.

00:40:24.79
Kathy
We've we've been told we're different our entire lives. yeah Let's just...

00:40:28.73
Dan Kerr
well

00:40:30.60
Kathy
Don't have to cry.

00:40:30.76
Dan Kerr
I say, congratulations. When people, when people would cut people to sort of join, we've got ah a private page so people can be a little bit more open and, you know, not be concerned about other people hearing and seeing what they're saying.

00:40:39.59
Kathy
Yep.

00:40:42.19
Dan Kerr
And yeah, every time someone goes through that process and gets a diagnosis, I'm like, congratulations on joining group awesome.

00:40:44.66
Kathy
Yep.

00:40:47.85
Kathy
Yep. Look, we used to do certificates.

00:40:48.97
Dan Kerr
You know?

00:40:51.44
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

00:40:52.06
Kathy
Congratulations. Here's your certificate of officialness.

00:40:55.07
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:40:59.39
Dan Kerr
Well, officialness, that's all, that's ah that's a good segue. I've got little songs for segues too. If it's a crappy segue, if it's a good segue. That's a good one. So you've you're in a ah number of boards.

00:41:12.79
Dan Kerr
So you're part of the Autistic Realm Australia.

00:41:16.23
Kathy
Realm, autistic realm, Tara.

00:41:17.06
Dan Kerr
Realm, oh, why can't I want to say Realm? What's wrong with Realm?

00:41:21.59
Kathy
ah You say realm. I've never heard it said real, but that's okay.

00:41:25.10
Dan Kerr
Really?

00:41:26.00
Kathy
I'm i'm not on reframing autism anymore.

00:41:26.16
Dan Kerr
Oh, I'm going to be looking that up.

00:41:29.22
Kathy
I've been away from them for a while.

00:41:29.39
Dan Kerr
Right. Okay.

00:41:31.60
Kathy
um Tara, we just had our AGM today, and I'm on the board of a maze, yeah.

00:41:31.85
Dan Kerr
Yep. Cool.

00:41:35.77
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:41:39.04
Dan Kerr
Amaze. Yep.

00:41:39.84
Kathy
And I was on the board of a SAN, the Autistic Self Advocacy Network.

00:41:39.92
Dan Kerr
And that's where I saw your name.

00:41:43.56
Dan Kerr
Okay. Right.

00:41:44.70
Kathy
Yeah, in fact, during 2020, I was chair of ASAN, chair of TARA and chair of reframing autism. And then all of those things happened in my life.

00:41:53.42
Dan Kerr
Right.

00:41:55.97
Kathy
And I just went bloop, bloop, bloop. And I said sort of stepped back from everything.

00:42:00.15
Dan Kerr
ah

00:42:00.22
Kathy
And that was, yeah, that giving myself permission to step back from everything when I needed to, that was good.

00:42:00.78
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Absolutely. what What sort of things did you do as a board member? um what were What were some of the, I suppose the the common, like across the mall, was there some commonalities to the sort of things you were wanting to to work towards?

00:42:21.80
Kathy
I think the commonality for all of them, particularly the autistic-led organizations I'm going to talk about primarily, the commonality is trying to get the autistic voice heard in autism research or in autism supports or service providers or um clinicians, you know, trying to get the autistic perspective out there understood and heard.

00:42:27.89
Dan Kerr
Yeah, yep.

00:42:37.77
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:47.65
Dan Kerr
Legitimized.

00:42:50.14
Kathy
Yes, legitimized, that's that was more of ah an end goal, but certainly heard is like the thing that we were working to the most strongly.

00:42:51.12
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:54.92
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:01.74
Kathy
It's getting heard now.

00:43:03.64
Dan Kerr
Yes.

00:43:04.64
Kathy
It's starting to get heard, not everywhere.

00:43:04.79
Dan Kerr
Yes. It's starting.

00:43:07.06
Kathy
Yes.

00:43:07.59
Dan Kerr
I use the term zeitgeist quite a lot, I like that term.

00:43:10.65
Kathy
Yes.

00:43:10.82
Dan Kerr
And for anything to get done in this many cultures, there has to be a zeitgeist, which is why the same-sex marriage managed to get through. um Because for a lot of people, they like to be part of the popular group, you know, and that they're team marriage for everyone, you know.

00:43:29.09
Kathy
yes

00:43:30.17
Dan Kerr
and it became a popular thing I think it's starting to become a little bit more and because of like some of the media or ah TV shows things like that sort of started and started to expand a little bit beyond you know Rain Man sort of it's not great but it's still you can see that it's growing you know have you been watching any of the shows like have you seen ah Michael Theo in his new show?

00:43:45.99
Kathy
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:53.89
Kathy
No.

00:43:55.43
Dan Kerr
Michael Theo we talked to him

00:43:55.86
Kathy
Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. I know who you're talking about and I've seen an ad for it.

00:43:58.10
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Austin.

00:43:59.48
Kathy
No, I i haven't seen a lot of TV recently.

00:43:59.89
Dan Kerr
Austin.

00:44:02.73
Dan Kerr
It's wonderful.

00:44:03.65
Kathy
Is it good?

00:44:04.40
Dan Kerr
It's just amazing.

00:44:04.57
Kathy
Okay.

00:44:06.14
Dan Kerr
He, he was great cause we loved him and, um, love on the spectrum. And so we managed to speak to him and I did a little acting skit with him cause he's, you know, I saw that he was, he was into acting, you know?

00:44:17.66
Dan Kerr
And so I got to do a little, a little skit with him. And all of a sudden now he's like, this amazing, and he always was, he's a great actor. And he he's got his own show that's now getting a second season.

00:44:29.46
Dan Kerr
um He's just so good in it. it's it's It's wonderful to see that stuff I love. I love that kind of stuff.

00:44:34.98
Kathy
Yep, yep.

00:44:36.76
Dan Kerr
um And have you seen the one also, there's one on media students where they're speaking to sort of prominent people like the prime minister and so forth.

00:44:43.72
Kathy
ah Media students, yes.

00:44:45.43
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:44:45.48
Kathy
I'm quite good friends with somebody who was one of the journalists.

00:44:48.39
Dan Kerr
Okay.

00:44:50.93
Dan Kerr
Oh, interesting. Yeah. And I started to see at least one of them actually just appearing in ABC, um, just legitimately in news reports and so forth, which is really good. She was my favorite too. Um, but that's the sort of stuff I do like seeing. And I think that is, that's like us thinking that we're talking about, you know, but for you, how old were you when you got the, your first diagnosis?

00:45:13.15
Kathy
have forty three

00:45:15.99
Dan Kerr
43.

00:45:16.03
Kathy
43, I think.

00:45:16.40
Dan Kerr
Okay. I was 49.

00:45:21.00
Kathy
I don't know, what year is it? Yeah, it would have been 43.

00:45:24.57
Dan Kerr
Yeah, well, I'm not going to do maths to help you out. I can show you my diagnosis results.

00:45:31.83
Kathy
Yes, Calculia!

00:45:33.51
Dan Kerr
It is really bad. Exactly. I got so excited by that term. I only just heard about it like a couple of months ago and I was just like, yes, those exciting moments. There's a word, there's a term for it.

00:45:44.25
Kathy
right i know oh the moment alexithymia yeah i've got alexithymia i don't know how i feel about that

00:45:44.95
Dan Kerr
Oh my God.

00:45:47.82
Dan Kerr
You've mentioned it. That's the other one I mentioned I found out I discovered a couple of months ago. I've done and i've done an episode already on it. yeah It was something that was just, yeah, it was just something to, as I've been self assessing after the diagnosis, and then I started to think, oh, yeah, what is that? When I'm not masking and I'm starting to do a lot less of that, I did notice here, when I'm not masking, there's not a lot of emotion going on, you know, and there's not and there's certainly not a lot of understanding of

00:46:25.91
Dan Kerr
what I'm feeling, you know? And so, yeah, to have that, I think that just helps, again, people who think you're going to get the diagnosis. Also, look up terms, look up, just do a little Google to say, I do this or whatever, or talk to your psychologist or someone else, you know, and find out and read up about them, because it actually does make you feel really good.

00:46:46.56
Kathy
Yes, yes.

00:46:47.79
Dan Kerr
You know, not bad, not bad.

00:46:49.34
Kathy
No, it's so reassuring that, you know, this is a normal thing. This is a but to the point, this is a thing.

00:46:55.55
Dan Kerr
yeah

00:46:58.93
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's like, I gotta say that when it's just, it's, it's ball achingly boring for autistic people to have some of these fight out about these things.

00:47:14.46
Dan Kerr
Cause it's just so normal. It's just, that is normal to have all these different things, these quirks and these, um, definitions that, that, that understand our neurotype, you know, it's, and it's, ah it's nice.

00:47:23.49
Kathy
Yeah.

00:47:24.97
Dan Kerr
I think it's nice to say, Oh yeah, I'm part of the, I'm part of it. you know a whole group of minds that sort of do similar things you know doesn't mean i want to you know have weekly meetings with them but ah okay right

00:47:32.65
Kathy
Yeah. I remember. So I'm a graduate of the governance program from Sylvia Rogers, as ah you met you before. But I also was on the project team this time around. So they've they've run that twice now.

00:47:51.60
Kathy
um But when when we did the governance program the first time around, um we just had the talk about managing finances and understanding financial reports and things like that.

00:48:04.30
Dan Kerr
Okay.

00:48:04.31
Kathy
And I can't remember, you know, one of us said something along the lines of, you know, the whole financial focus that the holistic world seems to have, this thing where everything about money is important.

00:48:16.26
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:48:19.60
Kathy
You know, autistic people tend on the whole not to place being wealthy as a highest priority in their lives.

00:48:29.19
Dan Kerr
No, no.

00:48:30.22
Kathy
And a couple of the holistic board members that were that were there having that conversation, they said, oh, no, that wouldn't be right. That's not right.

00:48:39.35
Dan Kerr
What?

00:48:39.89
Kathy
And it's like we all went, but it is.

00:48:42.24
Dan Kerr
It is. yeah

00:48:44.56
Kathy
Yeah, we're perfectly happy to understand the finances. We understand the purpose of having your your finances working for your organization, but for ourselves, it's just not that important.

00:48:50.20
Dan Kerr
Yep. Mm.

00:48:55.62
Kathy
Oh no, that wouldn't be right. But it is!

00:48:59.46
Dan Kerr
And that's right. And having a different kind of way of, of singing things, it could also be a credible value to from a financial perspective as well.

00:49:03.01
Kathy
Oh, absolutely.

00:49:07.95
Dan Kerr
You can, you can draw some new and interesting ways of, of, yeah, of making your company or whatever it is, make more money, you know, but.

00:49:18.06
Kathy
Exactly. um If you're, if you have somebody on the company who's got a focus that is not about the the financial and the, you know, compliance and, you know, somebody who's got a passion for what, and so I've been mostly on autism related organisations, but if you've got people who have got an absolute passion for it and who are connected in to the community that you're working for and with,

00:49:29.72
Dan Kerr
Yep. Okay.

00:49:43.34
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:49:48.22
Kathy
then your organisation is going to be more relevant and there it's going to be it's going to sort of collect more voices and then you get to the point where you know the government want to talk to you in um you know so that they can get you know use your access to other voices it's that connection to community and that true um

00:50:00.49
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:50:15.06
Kathy
I don't know, following the the purpose that you've got put us put in front of you that the organisation is said to be working towards, if you're actually true to that purpose, your mission, your vision, your values, um your organisation is going to be far more consistent and far more valuable.

00:50:20.20
Dan Kerr
yeah yeah yeah Yep.

00:50:35.94
Kathy
And that's, you know,

00:50:44.07
Kathy
just oh you you're not you sounds off yes yeah and having that having that consistency and having that um sense of purpose in an organization it it does help the bottom line and i mean when i say the bottom line i'm not talking about the bottom line as somebody who's got a passion for the

00:50:49.09
Dan Kerr
Yes, absolutely. Get it off mute.

00:50:59.62
Dan Kerr
who

00:51:11.81
Kathy
Purpose has it. But the bottom line as per the the financial, it it will build trust.

00:51:13.22
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:21.74
Kathy
It will build community.

00:51:23.07
Dan Kerr
And innovation.

00:51:24.51
Kathy
Yes, it would definitely build innovation.

00:51:26.30
Dan Kerr
Exactly. that's that's That's an important part of yeah where I work, ah particularly for training package development and that sort of the different ways of learning and that sort of thing are really important and starting to get discussed now.

00:51:31.06
Kathy
Yeah.

00:51:36.80
Kathy
Yep.

00:51:39.18
Dan Kerr
you know And it's something that Diversity Council of Australia also um say what you're saying a lot as well.

00:51:39.88
Kathy
Yeah.

00:51:45.42
Dan Kerr
Just the they they provide the stats on how valuable it is to have diverse thinking.

00:51:50.78
Kathy
Yes. And a lot of a lot of people hear that, you know, you need diversity on your boards, you need diversity in your team, all that kind of thing.

00:51:52.40
Dan Kerr
you know

00:52:00.55
Kathy
And what they hear is 10% of our organisation's time and effort should be um fed back into supporting people who are less privileged than us.

00:52:14.07
Kathy
And it's like, no, I'm sorry, that's bullshit.

00:52:16.77
Dan Kerr
what we're saying.

00:52:17.73
Kathy
No!

00:52:19.02
Dan Kerr
No, we would like to add in value.

00:52:20.12
Kathy
It's actually useful.

00:52:22.91
Dan Kerr
Would you like to have people come and work for you who will add value to what you do in ways that you will never be able to think about, like that you'll never be able to come to some conclusions, you know, that a truly diverse working group can achieve?

00:52:28.00
Kathy
Yes. Y-yep, exactly. Yes.

00:52:41.89
Dan Kerr
You know? Yep. I'm absolutely. I've just been working on that for, uh, for us about, uh, um, the employment opportunities and that sort of stuff. So that's, that's, yeah, right in front of the head at the moment.

00:52:55.22
Dan Kerr
So you got, so when you got your diagnosis, did you go through that whole, well, we were talking about this before. Did you go through that morning stage at all?

00:53:06.61
Kathy
No, I didn't, but I'd been self-identifying for a while.

00:53:07.64
Dan Kerr
Oh, reflection. Right.

00:53:11.83
Kathy
So, um

00:53:16.41
Kathy
um look, I think the the morning stage has always been tempered by the fact that I know that if I was diagnosed autistic as a kid, my experience of that diagnosis and what that meant for me with respect to the way my life went would have been very different to somebody who's diagnosed today.

00:53:27.32
Dan Kerr
Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yes.

00:53:41.65
Kathy
And I would not have liked what happened to me if I had that diagnosis as a child.

00:53:47.64
Dan Kerr
Yep, yep. Yeah, yeah, yep.

00:53:49.17
Kathy
I didn't like the way my peers were as it was, but what you know what would have happened with the, oh, you know she's got an autism diagnosis, you need to you need to um take her out of mainstream school and all that kind of thing. well let me

00:54:11.21
Dan Kerr
You went through that too, didn't you with the sun? Like there was, you had, ah he was still having those bad experiences within school.

00:54:17.25
Kathy
His experiences were very much more about um his reactions to things. And so he would blow up, lose control, and get sent home.

00:54:29.82
Dan Kerr
Right.

00:54:31.59
Kathy
And so when,

00:54:32.56
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:54:38.27
Kathy
I just, I keep remembering the comments that were made, like, you know,

00:54:42.15
Dan Kerr
Oh, yeah.

00:54:42.87
Kathy
um We've got a rule in our playground that says sticks and stones stay on the ground. All right. And Gareth had picked up a, yeah my son had picked up a stick.

00:54:56.09
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

00:54:56.51
Kathy
My son had picked up a stick and um and he wouldn't let go of it. Now, when somebody says to you, he wouldn't let go of it.

00:55:07.79
Kathy
That's not, he wouldn't drop it.

00:55:10.12
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

00:55:10.19
Kathy
That's, I was pulling on the other end of it and he had got hold of it and there was a tug of war going on.

00:55:12.92
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:55:15.35
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:55:16.25
Kathy
It's like, that's not the way to deal with that.

00:55:18.29
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:55:20.51
Dan Kerr
No.

00:55:21.11
Kathy
It's got a very strong sense of rightness and justice and things like that. And if you work with that, it's like, You don't need to pull the stick away from him.

00:55:33.38
Kathy
You just need to give real reasons as to why sticks and stones stay on the ground that will make sense to somebody of that age.

00:55:33.89
Dan Kerr
No.

00:55:36.63
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:55:41.19
Kathy
And he will go, oh, OK, and put it down.

00:55:45.16
Dan Kerr
We're talking again about innovative thought and and but thinking certain ways about these sort sort ah situations that just aren't really still much available. there that schools Or schools aren't seeking them out.

00:55:58.61
Kathy
Yeah.

00:55:59.29
Dan Kerr
They're still trying to resolve it the ways that they no you know.

00:55:59.46
Kathy
Yeah.

00:56:03.32
Kathy
Yep.

00:56:03.65
Dan Kerr
Comfort. Comfort again.

00:56:06.96
Kathy
Yeah. And with people who like, like my son, like myself, have got um PDA, Pathological Demand Avoidance, or Persistent um Demand for Autonomy, depending on who you listen to as to what, what that stands for.

00:56:13.86
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:56:22.88
Dan Kerr
Oh, interesting. Okay. Right. Yep.

00:56:26.49
Kathy
um Then That confrontational approach is just exactly designed to cause yourself, you know, yourself as being the authority figure, cause yourself problems.

00:56:38.34
Dan Kerr
Yep. Yeah.

00:56:41.67
Kathy
Don't don't attack them head on.

00:56:44.17
Dan Kerr
yeah

00:56:46.68
Kathy
Work with the kid or the adult for that matter.

00:56:48.81
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:56:53.01
Dan Kerr
My wife uses the PDA. That went in quite a lot with me.

00:56:57.06
Kathy
that' No, really?

00:56:58.13
Dan Kerr
see And I'm pretty good at, I love coming up with, ah with acronyms and finding different words using the PDA. And I was thought, please don't argue.

00:57:08.61
Dan Kerr
That's what I'll call it.

00:57:10.42
Kathy
No, I think it's persistent demand for autonomy.

00:57:12.53
Dan Kerr
I hadn't heard of that one before.

00:57:12.85
Kathy
I might just, yeah,

00:57:15.22
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:57:16.73
Kathy
um

00:57:18.63
Dan Kerr
Yeah, it's a bit more of a positive spin on it instead of...

00:57:23.75
Dan Kerr
Yeah, it's quite...

00:57:23.92
Kathy
desire, persistent desire for autonomy.

00:57:26.70
Dan Kerr
Oh, nice. Yeah, I like that. That's much better.

00:57:29.56
Kathy
Isn't it?

00:57:30.31
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

00:57:30.94
Kathy
And that is actually, that just I knew that demand wasn't right because that's a negative term.

00:57:34.82
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Well, it is.

00:57:36.98
Kathy
Persistent desire for autonomy is um being picked up and taken, not at not not in a clinical sense, certainly, but certainly with um or pervasive demand for autonomy.

00:57:42.78
Dan Kerr
Oh, that's right.

00:57:53.30
Dan Kerr
Yeah, I'd like not come across. I just don't know the pathological demand of audience and you know.

00:57:56.83
Kathy
You will now. Yeah, that's that Bader-Meinhof principle, you hear it a lot now.

00:58:04.04
Dan Kerr
but Great for schools actually to to utilize those different explanations instead of that and putting them into a ah much different light.

00:58:08.34
Kathy
Yep.

00:58:12.32
Kathy
Yep.

00:58:12.64
Dan Kerr
Yeah, oh God, I'm gonna be using that.

00:58:12.85
Kathy
ye yeah

00:58:17.24
Dan Kerr
um Now, look, we've been talking for about 58 bloody minutes. um And I do like, we move we when Bianca was around my co-host, we used to do a who knows the person we're interviewing better, and we'd have a little question, and we'd both see who you who knows the interviewer better, or the interviewee, sorry.

00:58:39.42
Kathy
Yeah.

00:58:40.15
Dan Kerr
But I thought we could do this, we could do this. We could just do ah the the back and forth and just figure out and who gets it right more often, you know. So yeah I've wouldve got a couple of things here. So, okay. ah First of all, I suppose before that, ah before that, just a more generalistic, what what are your special interests?

00:58:57.75
Kathy
home Okay, so I've got three things that I'm really passionate about at the moment. Anything autism is one of them.

00:59:06.78
Dan Kerr
Mm-hmm.

00:59:07.47
Kathy
um I'm right into sewing at the moment.

00:59:11.30
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

00:59:11.94
Kathy
So at the moment I'm wearing a top that I sewed myself.

00:59:13.97
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:59:15.70
Kathy
I'm really enjoying, you can sort of see all my sewing stuff behind me.

00:59:21.18
Dan Kerr
My daughter's into that too.

00:59:23.37
Kathy
oh

00:59:23.61
Dan Kerr
Yep.

00:59:25.89
Kathy
Look at that, isn't that beautiful?

00:59:26.15
Dan Kerr
Yeah. hip yeah ah Wow.

00:59:27.60
Kathy
Yeah, but've got I've got rainbow, like rainbow fabrics all lined up in my bookcase. So nicely color coded.

00:59:35.15
Dan Kerr
That's pretty awesome. Color coded. Yeah.

00:59:37.94
Kathy
um And the third thing, and this is embarrassing, every time I say this is embarrassing. So at work, the app that we've built for supporting other CRCs is built on a platform called Salesforce.

00:59:50.24
Dan Kerr
Yeah, no Salesforce.

00:59:51.03
Kathy
I love it.

00:59:51.15
Dan Kerr
Yep. Yep.

00:59:53.17
Kathy
I'm such a Salesforce tragic.

00:59:53.77
Dan Kerr
I did too. But aren't you doing CRM stuff as well? Isn't that part of what you're doing?

00:59:58.05
Kathy
That is CRM stuff. That's the Salesforce is the CRM.

00:59:59.57
Dan Kerr
Yeah. I do go to that too. Yeah.

01:00:02.20
Kathy
Yeah.

01:00:02.45
Dan Kerr
I love it.

01:00:03.21
Kathy
Yeah. Oh, and the building the automations for that and coming up with really interesting ways around problems and that using your brain constantly.

01:00:07.21
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:00:12.94
Dan Kerr
yeah Yeah. Yep.

01:00:16.76
Kathy
I love it. Oh, and the other thing that I love with that is that with all of these other CRCs, other people's research,

01:00:18.34
Dan Kerr
Yep.

01:00:25.62
Dan Kerr
Okay.

01:00:26.72
Kathy
my favorite communication style is info dump. And, you know, info dump me anything you want. Get excited. Please get excited about your special interests.

01:00:39.00
Dan Kerr
yeah Do you, when you're reading ah studies, do you go straight to the conclusion first?

01:00:42.33
Kathy
Oh, abstract.

01:00:46.63
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:00:47.40
Kathy
Yeah, look, I go to the abstract.

01:00:48.00
Dan Kerr
Well, not the absolute conclusion at the bottom, right at the bottom.

01:00:50.26
Kathy
um No, abstract.

01:00:53.00
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:00:53.69
Kathy
Um, I usually get about paragraph half and a half into the introduction. I go, this is rubbish. I skip to the results and then I skip to the conclusion or discussion and conclusion.

01:00:58.66
Dan Kerr
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

01:01:02.94
Kathy
yeah

01:01:04.76
Dan Kerr
It feels like that's the allistic part up there. Like, oh for God's sake, enough of the babble. You know, one of my favorite tools I use on a daily basis is, um and my brain tells me to forget the word all the time, which is really annoying because it's something I use constantly every day.

01:01:09.58
Kathy
yeah yeah

01:01:20.54
Dan Kerr
And I have to sit there and think, what is the name of this bloody thing? It's called goblin tools. It takes it.

01:01:25.44
Kathy
Oh, yeah, Yep.

01:01:27.24
Dan Kerr
what was is the best it's just amazing you know based on what you're talking about before is it how you respond how you can you are used in then the ways i respond to people and work and and lots of other things as well but yeah it's that that sort of stuff is incredibly helpful at times um because it's unwaffled is a good one like that's that's what you want to do you could chuck all that in there and just say unwaffle you know let's let's let's get to the the meat and veg about what this is all about you know me too yeah

01:01:36.18
Kathy
Yep.

01:01:40.40
Kathy
Yep.

01:01:48.84
Kathy
Yes. Yep. book I love chat GPT actually for all sorts of things. But um one of the things that I've done recently with chat GPT is um basically I shoved a whole bunch of text from a paper in it and said, can you summarize this in two sentences?

01:02:08.66
Dan Kerr
Yep. Yes.

01:02:10.83
Kathy
Oh, they're great.

01:02:10.99
Dan Kerr
Yep. Best. All the time.

01:02:14.52
Kathy
Yeah, actually.

01:02:15.80
Dan Kerr
All the time.

01:02:16.78
Kathy
favorite favourite thing that I've done very recently for chat GPT is I asked it for writing quotes, writing, sorry, not writing quotes, prompts, writing prompts.

01:02:19.60
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:02:26.23
Dan Kerr
Oh.

01:02:27.57
Kathy
And what I said, hang on a sec, I might actually just, well, no, I'll remember, what I said was, um I want writing prompts set in a modern fantasy setting,

01:02:39.72
Kathy
using the themes that we have discussed through our discussions.

01:02:43.09
Dan Kerr
Yes, yep.

01:02:44.62
Kathy
You know, my discussion with chat GPT.

01:02:45.01
Dan Kerr
Yeah, yep. yeah yes yeah

01:02:46.66
Kathy
Oh my God, it was so funny. There were some brilliant ones. Like, oh, now I've got to find this one. I'm sorry, I know we're getting close to time, but I've just got to find this one because it was just hilarious.

01:02:56.37
Dan Kerr
Oh, no, it's crazy that the stuff you can

01:03:00.06
Kathy
um

01:03:05.84
Kathy
No Room for Mushrooms was the title it gave me. In a magical cooking competition where every dish influences the emotions and choices of the tasters, a team with wildly different dietary restrictions and preferences must find creative ways to craft the ultimate harmony-inducing meal.

01:03:27.05
Dan Kerr
ah

01:03:27.60
Kathy
It's brilliant!

01:03:27.74
Dan Kerr
ah

01:03:30.74
Dan Kerr
Geez. That's why AI is fantastic because it it'll and it actually enables you to sort of skip past the annoying bits of the start and just go, okay, that's great. Now let me think about this.

01:03:41.83
Kathy
Exactly.

01:03:42.49
Dan Kerr
You know, let me get to the fun stuff.

01:03:42.78
Kathy
um

01:03:45.39
Kathy
a

01:03:48.09
Kathy
Adaptive charms was the other one that I liked.

01:03:50.46
Dan Kerr
Adaptive challenge.

01:03:50.79
Kathy
um um A group of older, cheeky magical beings from a former collective to protect the city's balance. Each member has unpredictable day-to-day variations in their abilities, forcing them to rely on each other and embrace their dynamic natures.

01:04:06.11
Dan Kerr
That's awesome. but so much this is This is your Terry Pratchett interest coming to shine.

01:04:12.36
Kathy
well It is, but um it's just the ideas that come out of that, that, you know, it just starts things rolling.

01:04:22.17
Dan Kerr
Exactly, yeah, yeah.

01:04:25.17
Kathy
That's why I love prompts. That's why I love writing prompts, because it starts you thinking.

01:04:27.19
Dan Kerr
Yeah, and it's really good.

01:04:31.40
Dan Kerr
It's almost like if you if you're in a hurry, it skips past you having to get into that state of um where you get that artistic state to to begin the process.

01:04:42.50
Dan Kerr
I find sometimes doing that, and it it sort of skips you past that bit. And yeah, it gives you the inspiration straight away to get on with it.

01:04:48.48
Kathy
And writing prompts have been around forever.

01:04:49.04
Dan Kerr
You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:50.82
Kathy
And the two pieces of writing that two people will come up with with a different writing prompt are brilliant.

01:04:56.71
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:04:58.94
Kathy
Like a it's amazing.

01:05:02.84
Dan Kerr
I used to sit on the train and and set myself a task of writing a story but that has to finish at the station I'm about to get off. It has to conclude.

01:05:14.13
Dan Kerr
And so yeah i've got I called the train diaries and I've just got all these these little stories. And yeah, just you talking about Terry Pratchett just reminded me of some sort of very serious English lady um in her like 70s was whisked away to some fantasy land with gnomes and goblins and that sort of stuff.

01:05:33.71
Dan Kerr
And how would she deal with these, you know?

01:05:36.10
Kathy
Oh, I get that. i think I think what I've seen there was, um was that a meme that you saw?

01:05:44.29
Dan Kerr
No, no, I just wrote it like it's something I just wrote in the train.

01:05:46.63
Kathy
Oh, really?

01:05:47.68
Dan Kerr
Yeah. And I just thought, this is hilarious.

01:05:49.57
Kathy
Oh, because I remember to someone um like there's a meme that flows goes around every now and then that says, why are these chosen ones always teenagers?

01:05:50.18
Dan Kerr
You know, I think I called a Mabel.

01:05:59.49
Kathy
Why would you pick the most unstable group of people to be the chosen one?

01:06:01.09
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah.

01:06:06.54
Kathy
Why would you not have an octogenarian, you know, traveling around the world with a with a stabby knitting needle?

01:06:09.67
Dan Kerr
Exactly. Yeah, Mabel would not be flustered. She would. Exactly. She wouldn't be flustered by an orc. She just wouldn't.

01:06:18.01
Kathy
No.

01:06:19.39
Dan Kerr
How dare you? It just, it would be awesome fun.

01:06:22.47
Kathy
yeah Yeah, and that that comes back that comes back to Terry Pratchett's witches.

01:06:23.32
Dan Kerr
I've always wanted to expand.

01:06:26.78
Kathy
It's like but um they're very sensible and very different each of them, but you know, just they're they're all in their 70s and 80s and it's like just, yeah.

01:06:39.24
Dan Kerr
I'm going to read more of these books. I've only read a few.

01:06:42.53
Kathy
um I've got all of them on audible and I listen to them on rotation.

01:06:46.35
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Audible. That's, that's the way to go. So we already know then what your favorite book is. Cause I had that down on the list. What do you think, what do you think would be my favorite sort of book or even book genre?

01:07:02.11
Kathy
That's interesting. I think you probably enjoy things that are a blend of story with philosophy.

01:07:15.61
Kathy
um So the one that comes to mind, the first book I ever read that really broadened my mind was Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which I read ready when I was in year 10.

01:07:17.23
Dan Kerr
it's yeah

01:07:25.09
Dan Kerr
I read it. I read it. yeah Yep. Yep.

01:07:30.64
Kathy
And it was just like, oh, this is amazing. And that, that moving in and out of thought process and, and, and, you know, philosophy, and then into the story of, of traveling on the bikes.

01:07:42.19
Dan Kerr
Yeah. That's hilarious.

01:07:47.81
Dan Kerr
My favourite book at that time, and I'd read that as well, but but it's called The Adventures of a Whim, W-H-I-M, by Luke Reinhart, who did The Dice Man.

01:07:56.64
Kathy
Hi.

01:07:57.03
Dan Kerr
ah

01:07:57.60
Kathy
Yes, I've had that recommended to me previously and I had forgotten.

01:08:01.57
Dan Kerr
ah he's re He rewrote it, so it's actually...

01:08:04.98
Kathy
Is it in a good way?

01:08:07.24
Dan Kerr
I haven't even bothered to try and read a new one. the The first one was perfect, why would you change it? Oh God, yeah that's exactly the sort of stuff you're just talking about. That's what I love.

01:08:18.89
Dan Kerr
Absolutely love that stuff.

01:08:21.43
Kathy
Well, look, I mean, and you got to, you got to realize Terry practice got all of that philosophy.

01:08:21.89
Dan Kerr
So there you go.

01:08:27.34
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yep.

01:08:28.07
Kathy
like the Vimes Boots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness, whereby a rich person can buy a $50 pair of boots and it'll still be keeping their feet dry in 10 years, but a poor person can only buy a $10 pair of boots and they will have had they will have spent $100 on boots by the end of the 10 years and their feet will still be wet.

01:08:28.87
Dan Kerr
He does.

01:08:33.88
Dan Kerr
Yep.

01:08:47.12
Dan Kerr
hundreds of years. Yeah.

01:08:55.62
Dan Kerr
Oh, God. Yeah. That's what there's exactly what we're talking about. There's just got those so many elements to it, don't they? It's like funny, but there's also, oh, it's some thinking.

01:09:00.61
Kathy
You know, so much thought to it, yeah.

01:09:04.10
Dan Kerr
Yeah. That's brilliant.

01:09:06.28
Kathy
There's that undercurrent of anger ah at injustice and he's, yeah, he's got my kind, well, head, I guess, but my kind of anger.

01:09:06.60
Dan Kerr
All right.

01:09:08.90
Dan Kerr
Uh, exactly. Yeah.

01:09:16.31
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:09:17.42
Kathy
It's like, when you see the world and you go, but that's not right.

01:09:17.81
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:09:21.52
Kathy
And then that ties back to what we're saying about, you know, what's important and what's fair.

01:09:22.01
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Even if it's a stick.

01:09:28.97
Kathy
Yep, yep.

01:09:29.96
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:09:32.29
Dan Kerr
ah What about favorite smell or scent? um I'm gonna say, hmm. And there's nothing, I'm getting nothing from the from the background other than, I wonder i wonder if there's like, um

01:09:48.46
Dan Kerr
What if you like the the smell of certain jellies, like a um like a ah grape jelly or something like that? Something like that's got that sort of...

01:09:55.43
Kathy
Not grape, not grape, but I've always said that the only smells I can tolerate consistently are food type smells. So, you know, dab of vanilla behind your ears rather than perfumes.

01:10:11.83
Dan Kerr
best.

01:10:13.47
Kathy
Yeah.

01:10:13.51
Dan Kerr
Well, you should check out Wilderness Labs. As you can see that I've just I've interviewed Rini

01:10:22.90
Kathy
Tasmanian gold. Okay, what is it?

01:10:25.01
Dan Kerr
Yep, so that's what I'm on. It's just, it's basically a perfume that's actually, um it's a bar. So you can see it's a solid bar that you can just sort of rub your hands and um I use it because I love the smell of it.

01:10:38.38
Dan Kerr
So I put it on my beard.

01:10:38.55
Kathy
What is it? What does it smell like?

01:10:40.78
Dan Kerr
This one is, oh, I can't remember. It's like, it's got all those sort of natural sandalwoody and um what else has it got? vanily

01:10:53.92
Dan Kerr
She describes it so well on the on the website about what they all, you know, and you look it up and you you pick it, you pick the ones that they that appeal to you because they're naturally sourced from Tasmania.

01:10:57.46
Kathy
I'll have a look.

01:11:04.02
Dan Kerr
She warned wanders around and finds smells and and and captures them and and and adds them to these amazing things.

01:11:07.28
Kathy
I could totally get that. Yeah.

01:11:11.63
Dan Kerr
She's she's yeah she's awesome. So there's a yeah there's a good episode with her and then. I've just interviewed her again a couple of days ago. She's just written a book as well on organizing one's self during the day, which is gonna be very useful.

01:11:26.96
Dan Kerr
So, you know, check out Wilderness Labs, everyone else's will.

01:11:26.99
Kathy
ah ah Well, I've written it down on my list.

01:11:29.98
Dan Kerr
Good time. um Now, okay, so what would have been, well, I've just told you what I bloody smell, so I've just given that away.

01:11:36.22
Kathy
Yeah.

01:11:37.47
Dan Kerr
um Okay, okay. what What's a sound that you actually like that you seek out? Hmm. I'm going to, this is interesting. Sound.

01:11:57.87
Dan Kerr
Oh, that's a really tough one. Yeah.

01:12:08.18
Dan Kerr
I'll say it's like something that's repetitive. I would imagine you'd probably enjoy, i wonder would you enjoy that the clickety-clack sort of sound? but because Would you enjoy listening to a clickety-clack just on going over and over again for hours?

01:12:22.57
Kathy
Well, you know, I married a drummer, so...

01:12:25.55
Dan Kerr
i get I got drums. You can see the drums back there.

01:12:30.74
Kathy
Yeah, I would say though, like, is music another question? Because like, the it is.

01:12:35.21
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yeah, it is.

01:12:36.76
Kathy
All right, well, I won't say anything about music at the moment then. But yes, clickety-clack type sounds. um Repetitive is is difficult because if you've got a beep, beep, beep, beep, that is...

01:12:49.13
Dan Kerr
Oh, of course. Yeah.

01:12:50.35
Kathy
But... But yeah, like old train wheels or horse hooves or yeah, absolutely love that.

01:12:55.94
Dan Kerr
Oh, I love that.

01:12:58.90
Kathy
Bird song, first thing in the morning, if you hear a bird just sort of being glad to be alive sort of thing.

01:13:07.66
Dan Kerr
Well, OK, we were a little green around us. And at the moment, the sound, the bird sound that we're getting is

01:13:16.71
Kathy
Yeah. You got black cockatoos, is that what it is?

01:13:21.17
Dan Kerr
They're bloody crows.

01:13:22.52
Kathy
Oh, they're crows. Okay, the black cockatoos though. there so They're a shocker.

01:13:26.89
Dan Kerr
We get those too. um

01:13:30.47
Kathy
But crows say, fuck. Yeah.

01:13:34.53
Dan Kerr
And that's slow.

01:13:36.35
Kathy
yeah um Yeah, all right.

01:13:39.53
Dan Kerr
Okay.

01:13:43.02
Kathy
So obviously the crows are your favorite noise.

01:13:43.50
Dan Kerr
easy

01:13:44.98
Kathy
I can hear that deep, deep in your soul. It's so deep, it's like an out of body experience.

01:13:50.59
Dan Kerr
No. Laura Keats, I like, but every time I'm recording something, they're in the background.

01:13:58.35
Kathy
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:13:59.70
Dan Kerr
So that's a bit annoying, but no, I do love the sounds of birds.

01:14:01.50
Kathy
All right.

01:14:05.05
Dan Kerr
Now what, okay, so how about just your favorite album?

01:14:10.56
Kathy
I couldn't say that. I ah ah wouldn't have a favourite album.

01:14:13.59
Dan Kerr
but The one you will have listened to the most.

01:14:24.01
Dan Kerr
o

01:14:24.74
Kathy
I probably don't have a favourite album.

01:14:27.72
Dan Kerr
Wow.

01:14:28.37
Kathy
but and have always, from the first time I heard it, have always listened to Queen's Greatest Hits.

01:14:37.08
Dan Kerr
My son. Me too. Yeah, me too.

01:14:41.10
Kathy
Yeah, like that's my longest my longest album love. Longest and most consistent.

01:14:46.25
Dan Kerr
It's so good. Okay. Well, when you, when I say music, but what comes into your head then? What do you think about?

01:14:51.97
Kathy
I love things that sort of bend genres a little bit. So um we were out at, do you know Shazam, the app?

01:14:59.14
Dan Kerr
Yes.

01:15:05.38
Dan Kerr
Yeah, of course.

01:15:06.89
Kathy
Love it. We're out at a restaurant some weeks ago and we were hearing songs that I usually, you know, the the radio version of them is hard rock heavy rock, heavy metal even, done as cool piano light jazz.

01:15:12.44
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:15:22.59
Dan Kerr
Yeah, yeah.

01:15:27.97
Dan Kerr
h

01:15:29.82
Kathy
Um, I love, um, disturbed version of sound of silence.

01:15:32.55
Dan Kerr
Hmm.

01:15:34.45
Kathy
I love, you know, things, um, Jacques plays Bach.

01:15:38.71
Dan Kerr
You're just messing.

01:15:40.75
Kathy
Jacques, I can't think of his surname, French, um, French jazz pianist.

01:15:41.34
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Yeah.

01:15:44.77
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yep.

01:15:45.33
Kathy
Um, his version of Toccata and Fugue, um, which he's, it's almost, when you listen to it, it's almost like it's dueling between the classical version.

01:15:49.25
Dan Kerr
Hmm. Hmm.

01:15:56.48
Kathy
and the jazz version, you know, you've got your classical straight time that then just kind of flicks over into the the syncopation and the the blue notes and and then flicks back again.

01:16:02.72
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:16:08.66
Dan Kerr
Whoa.

01:16:09.43
Kathy
It's like jeweling banjos, but jeweling genres.

01:16:09.73
Dan Kerr
I don't think I've hit this. It's interesting. Okay. I'm going to have to listen to this now. Jeez. I love being introduced to new music.

01:16:20.19
Dan Kerr
Oh God. Yeah. Okay.

01:16:22.32
Kathy
and

01:16:22.73
Dan Kerr
Now we're going to quickly go through this. Okay. Last one. Let's do the last one is, uh, uh, what's your favorite color? Your favorite color is it's going to have to be something that's very colorful from what we've been garnering here.

01:16:34.88
Dan Kerr
Can I just say orange?

01:16:36.37
Kathy
no it's not orange but you're not far off it's yellow but it has to be the rock kind of yellow because there are some yellows that i hate but yeah so a yellow that is on the gold side but muted so that it's like um not even doesn't have to be natural um

01:16:39.77
Dan Kerr
Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is like madness.

01:16:53.75
Dan Kerr
Yes.

01:17:00.09
Dan Kerr
We'll be more natural.

01:17:06.09
Kathy
custard powder yellow, sort of pinkish pale yellow, um or a bit brighter than that, but nothing that goes off into mustard.

01:17:07.50
Dan Kerr
Oh yeah. Okay. Yep. Yep. Yep.

01:17:16.07
Dan Kerr
Okay.

01:17:16.71
Kathy
no Okay, is okay, because as long as it's sort of pushed towards that that browner, it's fine, but nothing that's sort of that greeny yellow muted thing.

01:17:16.81
Dan Kerr
Yep.

01:17:19.59
Dan Kerr
Yes.

01:17:22.46
Dan Kerr
Yes.

01:17:25.04
Dan Kerr
Yeah. Okay.

01:17:27.95
Dan Kerr
Wow. Well, there's yellow in the background.

01:17:29.63
Kathy
Oh, yes.

01:17:31.87
Dan Kerr
yeah I can show you my favorite color.

01:17:35.34
Kathy
yeah

01:17:38.79
Dan Kerr
It's just there's something about this color.

01:17:40.40
Kathy
Yeah, the green of it. <unk> let the Is it also the mixture of the greens?

01:17:43.00
Dan Kerr
yeah I think that's just the light playing with maybe I'm not sure but it just does this just yeah I just become I could get lost for hours just staring at this color this is so oh yeah no I like that yeah that's good yeah yep

01:17:57.62
Kathy
Actually, I could probably say this is this is close to my favorite yellow. Yeah.

01:18:05.91
Dan Kerr
wow um okay look this has gone way over i'd had more things and i'm like no well no we're just no we're just have to we're just to move past that you know but if you do come up with any autistic moments and it because we that was one thing we mentioned we might talk about but that's good that's another you know that goes on for another 20 minutes

01:18:28.22
Kathy
Look, I can, I don't know, this isn't another 20 minutes, my first ever autistic, oh my God, wait, that's autism moment.

01:18:35.87
Dan Kerr
Yeah.

01:18:36.86
Kathy
People talking about driving in the rain at night and that feeling of the lights coming towards you and it's like they're stabbing into the back of your eyes and it makes you feel nauseated.

01:18:39.69
Dan Kerr
Right.

01:18:46.40
Dan Kerr
Yes. Yep, yep.

01:18:48.64
Kathy
And it's like, what? That's autistic? I thought that was just me.

01:18:53.71
Dan Kerr
Okay, there that that's, yeah. Okay, there too. Yeah, there's there's overwhelming sort of sensory kind of things that happen, but yeah, that's true.

01:19:00.34
Kathy
yeah

01:19:03.27
Dan Kerr
But I also, I love the sounds of driving at night, the smells, all that sort of stuff.

01:19:09.11
Kathy
depends It depends on your exhaust, really, doesn't it?

01:19:09.44
Dan Kerr
And the then I just...

01:19:15.89
Dan Kerr
And how exhausted you are.

01:19:17.34
Kathy
Oh yeah, they do. Oh, yes.

01:19:21.44
Dan Kerr
Well, thank you so much for chatting. And I love, you know, I thought, you know, at the beginning I was thinking, well, just let's get into the sort of, you know, what's your work and that sort of stuff. But it's, I was also mindful of the fact that given the way that we sort of comm communicate a canon on Facebook Messenger, I thought it might actually, let's allow it to go off on tangency, you know, let's, cause it's also just an a nice insight instead of not just talking about autism, but being autistic as well.

01:19:46.35
Kathy
Yes, yes, autistic communication, it's just the best.

01:19:47.04
Dan Kerr
And I want to do that, you know,

01:19:51.05
Dan Kerr
It is. It's fantastic. Oh, anyway. Well, thank you so much. Um, this is my official goodbye. Thank you very much and hope to see speak to you again soon.

01:20:04.65
Kathy
Yes, thank you Dad, it's been lovely, thank you.

END